October 18, 2002
You're Making a What?
The product, which is central to the whole undertaking, is a new take on the Personal Information Manager. It will handle email, appointments, contacts and tasks, as well as be used to exchange information with other people, and do it all in the spirit of Lotus Agenda, about which more here and here. Agenda, for those who aren't familiar with it, was a DOS product I designed (along with Jerry Kaplan) in the late 1980's which introduced a new kind of database optimized for entering small items of information in a free-form manner, and then adding organizational categories on-the-fly. It was much beloved by a few, despite (or perhaps because) being abandoned by Lotus.
We are trying to make a PIM which is substantive enough and enticing enough to make people want to move to it from whatever they are currently using, which statistically is probably Microsoft Outlook. I'm not going to bash Outlook here. Suffice it to say that while feature-rich, it is very complex, which renders most of its functionality moot. Its information sharing features require use of Microsoft Exchange, a server-based product, which is both expensive and complex to administer. Exchange is overkill for small-to-medium organizations, which we think creates on opportunity we intend to pursue (as well of course as serving individual users)
Have I mentioned it's going to run on Macintosh, Linux, and Windows and will not require a server? This is an ambitious goal, but we are convinced is possible to achieve using a cross-platform tool kit. (We are working with wxWindows/wxPython).
Also, everything is going to be fully open sourced.
Users in large enterprises will have to wait beyond the first release to get a version they can fully use, as we're deferring the substantial engineering required to scale the product. Once we have an initial release, we think it would be an excellent entrepreneurial opportunity to build a full-out large enterprise version on top of our code base. This is an opportunity OSAF is not going to pursue itself, but one we think could be very attractive to commercial developers. That door won't open for quite some time, but it's worth contemplating now.
This entails making sure we dot our I's and cross out T's with respect to all the features a product must have to be best-of-class, without sacrificing ease of use. We need to worry about migration paths from existing products, synchronization with PDA's and a whole host of details beyond core functionality which are required to make a truly first-rate product. On top of that, we have to have perhaps half a dozen killer features elsewhere unavailable, which I will be writing about in future entries. (Don't mean to tease; there's just too much to say all at once). One area which I will mention is that we have a lot of faith that the general and powerful information-sharing technology (built on top of Jabber) we are embedding, will make it trivially simple
A couple of months ago, it became clear that we could not do all of the above while at the same time fully realizing all of the new ideas we've developed about helping people manage information better. This gave rise to an important idea, which is that we see this project as needing to go through multiple major releases to grow up and become fully realized. We felt it was important to start with something which could over time gain wide adoption, because then there would be a larger potential base of interest for future developments. All of which is to say we're going to wind up deferring working on certain cool features in order to get an initial product out the door.
At this point, a small team has spent the better part of a year thinking through the problem space and developing the fundamental of our approach and has just begun writing the production code. We've made a number of fundamental decisions about the architecture and have arrived at a preliminary set of features. Andy Hertzfeld has built a terrific prototype which enabled us to explore lots of new ideas.
To join a discussion on the design of the product see this.
Some things I intend to write about:
Time: when is this thing going to ship?
Posted by email@example.com at October 18, 2002 12:05 PM
Money: where is the money coming from to do this?
Our candidates for killer features
What was so great about Lotus Agenda?
RDF (Resource Definition Framework) and what it brings to the party
The sorry state of most software design today: how we got here
In the era of the Web, are PC applications obsolete?
Don't forget the migration path from Lotus Agenda.
Posted by: Josh Venter at November 9, 2002 05:03 AM
Was/is Agenda anywhere near as nifty as InfoCentral? InfoCentral last shipped with Corel WordPerfect Office 7 Professional, and is a relational database PIM which seems to be right down your alley. Where it especially shines is that it has its own macro language, albeit a primitive one, that allows some fun tricks. It is fast and infinitely flexible. Were I to develop the ultimate PIM you are talking about, I would start with the InfoCentral core. For more information, see an article about it:
Is there anywhere I can get my hands on a copy of Lotus Agenda to compare?
Posted by: Michael Koenecke at November 19, 2002 01:16 PM
This is great news! I'm an Agenda user from day 1 and eagerly await the new product. Agenda allows me to manage information the way I think, making it very intuitive for me. The most powerful piece for me is the ability to either enter information in an unstructured way or to define the structure first. In either case, it's very easy to manipulate the information.
The one thing I hope to see is a continuing increase in the flexibility to format the output.
Posted by: Leroy Hurt at December 7, 2002 10:09 PM
Don't forget Lotus Notes users, we are 50% of the corporate market with 80,000,000 seats.
Posted by: Bill Wood at December 11, 2002 01:01 PM
Don't forget support for synching to Palm and Pocket PC.
This might not seem like a 1.0 feature, but while I would readily switch from Outlook to try something new (evidence, I tried out Mozilla 1.0 recently after many years of IE and I'm sticking with Mozilla), I won't even contemplate something that would lose me the ability to synch between my trusty old Palm V and my desktop.
I imagine most other regular PDA users would feel the same.
Posted by: Chris at December 12, 2002 10:55 AM
Don't forget about everything, and make it look good, easy to use, and cheap (it shouldn't cost an Arm&Leg to implement/maintain).
It may not be a 1.0 feature, but definitely the way to go.
Again, I want to emphasize that we (the people who want it that way) are 85% of the users.
Posted by: John at December 12, 2002 09:28 PM
ive been creating a PIM in ms access for the last 3 yrs., like as a hobby. i use it daily to manage my personal info. it seamlessly combines contacts, businesses, assets, vehicle upkeep, account transactions, portfolio, tax info., websites...with graphs, too, for analysis. since i use it every day, ive been simplifying the usability and adding things with macros and the like as i go. anyone interested?
i would say that integration of info. & ease of use are key.
Posted by: E at December 13, 2002 11:33 AM
Would love to see an update that does what Agenda does. Been a user all these years. A great product that still helps me with my calendar and in organizing thoughts and various other material. I'll buy if and when it arrives.
Question. How does one print from Agenda when a Windows XP computer is set up to print through a UBS port. Agenda appears to only support LPTs? I have lost my Users Manual and am unclear about exporting to something one can print?
Posted by: Steve Pease at December 19, 2002 07:58 PM
Somewhere I heard someone saying that he is missing not so much Agenda but Ecco. I'd say the same. So if you build a new PIM, have a look at Ecco as well. And if you do, especially at that most genious feature for an alarm. You can create all sorts of profiles reminding you about a date in any combination of weeks, days, hours and minutes. For a short time meeting e.g. 1h, 30' 15' and 5' in advance; for a birthday 1 week, 3 days, 1 day in advance, so that you always have enough time to get a present or so.
About the deadline for coming out with that new PIM. For me, plse, hurry up, the internal calendar of Ecco is running out either 2003 0r 2004. And make it open for any email program. Me, I'm using Pocomail, of course. And also don't forget to make open for data import from older PIMs, like Ecco. I would hate to be forced to retape alle the infos I have stored for years in Ecco
Posted by: Götz Perll at December 22, 2002 07:06 AM
Posted by: a at December 23, 2002 01:27 AM
Anyone here every looked at Ecco ?
Might be of real interest to this effort...
Posted by: Richard Ellsbury at December 24, 2002 12:34 AM
Forgive my not reading the entire thread...looks like Ecco has been mentioned. I was the fifth employee of the company that developed it (Director of Quality Assurance plus about 20 other hats going from 5 to 125 employees +/-. It still works just real nifty on XP even though the company that now owns the code put it in cold storage about 5 years ago.
Quite an amazing piece of work...(I don't say that just because I worked on it)...it's more of a tribute to the primary architects and the company founder who conceived of the basic concept. The engineering team was quite simply the best I have ever worked with.
Posted by: Richard Ellsbury at December 24, 2002 12:40 AM
Before you do that, why not fix the few limitations of Agenda re memory and not being able to print large data sets without running out of memory. I would gladly pay for the upgrade. I have been using Agenda as a research and writing tool ever since it came out and I have never found anything which works better for it. Nothing even comes close. Please fix the 'old' Agenda so that it will work for me forever. I still run it under W2K and have just finished a large research project on it which took me a year to assemble. I have even made entire TV series using Agenda as my research notebook and resources organiser. So please... [A loyal professional user]
Posted by: A.non at December 26, 2002 02:10 PM
BTW - I *have* used Ecco, MS Access, Outliners of all sorts, AskSam, Screenwriting packages - you name it. And nothing does what Agenda does - you can whack together any shape of date set you like and change it quickly as you go along and customise the views etc etc. Believe me after 15 years of writing I have never seen a tool that remotely approaches Agenda. When Lotus abandoned it I swore never to buy another product of theirs again. But I did - foolishly, I bought Improv and after they abandoned that (on version 2, as usual), I swore at them again but this time I have kept my word. No more Lotus.
Posted by: a.non at December 26, 2002 02:15 PM
I have to bring up here Packrat 4.1, which was the PIM I have been using before ECCO (and then ACT and then Goldmine). I am still missing the great feature of opening multiple databases at the same time with great ease and elegance. Add now the ability to move records between databases in a multiuser environment, and you got a winner for the sales and marketing folks. BTW, I am still puzzled why ECCO has been dropped by the new owner...
Posted by: Zoltan Soos at December 28, 2002 08:52 AM
In the meantime - there's a PIM discussion group at yahoogroups.
It has many regular Agenda users swapping ideas and hints.
Keep on stroking Mitch - Darwin may yet have a challenger as the greatest thinker of all time....!
Posted by: PeterTBC at January 2, 2003 05:48 AM
I have to put a plug in for InfoCentral, i would still be using it if it had supported email. I consider it to be the most intuitive PIM ive ever used for finding the information about people or comapanies. It did take a little bit of effort to learn how to add information to it and set up relationships between objects but once you learned that you could find out anything about anyone or any company within about 3 clicks. I would almost be willing to put up a bounty on a program like evolution if someone would develope the same interface as an add on to it. You should take a look at infocentral as a model for one of the interfaces to your pim. It is without peer. If I could remember one piece of information about an individual or organization or project in infocentral i could find all related information in a couple clicks. for example. I couldn't remember a sales reps name but could remember his bosses name. I could go to the bosses name and then to the company he works for and then to employees of that company and there would be the saleman. this would take about 4 mouse clicks in a + or - expanding format. It is hard to describe but increadably easy to use. I found that the process worked very much like my brain associates people or organizations with other people or organizations so that it was very intuitive.
Posted by: Scott Carle at January 9, 2003 09:00 PM
you can get a copy of infocentral from a couple of places. I have found downloads for it at http://members.aol.com/mkoenecke/
I think it would be more than worth your time to take a look at it. My belief is that it takes the PIM to the next level.. that no one has done. PIMs are basicaly the same now as they were 8 and 9 years ago. just with a few more bells and whistles. Infocentral was a whole new way of interfacing with your information.
Posted by: Scott Carle at January 9, 2003 09:21 PM
Just like to add my voice to those saying we need Ecco updated and running on Linux - that would do it for me. I've tried half a dozen other PIM's and nothing comes close. I no longer use Agenda, although it was great, but I still use Ecco every day. If only there was a Linux version.
Posted by: Fred Martin at January 12, 2003 05:31 PM
In my opinion no PIM has come anywhere close to the robustness, ease of synchronization, intuitive user interface, power, etc, etc, etc of Ecco. To be honest I have not used Agenda. If your PIM is 70% as good as Ecco I will likely move over. Otherwise I will remain with Ecco until Microsoft succeeds, by some OS upgrade, in breaking it.
A long-time Ecco user.
Posted by: vince cavanna at January 16, 2003 04:07 PM
I am forced to use Outlook in my businees. Can anyone please shed some light if it is possible to enter a "task" for a certain date, having it show up automatically as a "task to do" when scheduled time arrives, and then stay there as a constant reminder until marked complete. I just can't seem to get it to work like most Personal Information Managers do. Thanks, I appreciate any bodys help.
Posted by: Mike Brookbank at January 19, 2003 03:26 PM
I just returned from the OracleAppsworld Conference where I met with some of the thougt leaders of the Oracle Collaboration Server. The solution is in need of a "pim/email" client with strong off-line capabilities.
During the "chat with the guru's session",
I suggested that Oracle support ($$$) your efforts and assist in "fast-tracking" the delivery of your product.
My company (aussieWORKS.BIZ) is focused on migrating IBM Domino/Notes users to the Oracle Collaboration Suite....we need your product to ensure our success!
Thanks in advance!
Posted by: George Diaz at January 23, 2003 09:07 AM
I would just like to echo in among all the others, it would be just great if in some way it was possible to make a continuation of ECCO ECCO ECCO ....... ;-)
Posted by: eccoee at January 28, 2003 12:43 PM
I've been using an obsolete mail reader for years simply because it integrates with the Ecco address book. Suddenly I need a new mail reader because of an ISP change that now requires SMTP authentication.
So I'm suddenly hoping that someone has created an Ecco address book integration for Mozilla mail. If not, I'll be hoping I can do it.
Whatever, I'm keeping Ecco.
Posted by: John Olson at February 1, 2003 05:14 PM
Wow! Does this bring back memories! I spent 5 years of my life as one of the software developers for Lotus Agenda, and I was the software architect and development manager of the product when Lotus finally killed it (after starving the poor thing for several years). I can tell you that I was more than a little bitter about how it ended.
The flexibility and power of Agenda is still not available in anything I've seen since, though I have never used Ecco, which I see some people above raving about.
Posted by: Steve Zagieboylo at February 9, 2003 08:57 PM
The best app ever on any platform is MORE 3.1 (I usually don't talk that way).
A simple, flexible, and (please) uncluttered-UI PIM is what we all need. I used Agenda in its days, and I still miss it. One that I don't miss because I use it every day, and which is even better IMHO, is MORE, on the Mac. I'm talking about the outliner, not the presentation modules. the last version was released around 1991.
I use MORE for my To-do list, organizing all kinds of info, and the most important aspect, for writing. I couldn't write/plan/storyboard without it. I will use MORE until the last 68000-compatible Mac on the planet stops working.
Please don't tell me that Word has an outline mode. I'm talking simple, easy, intuitive, elegant, fast, just-right.
How can we stay posted about the release of this new PIM?
Posted by: Christian Rittener at February 17, 2003 06:25 PM
PLEASE port Agenda to windows.
I love Agenda. Find it kludgy however.
Take the brains of Agenda and put a new face on it.
Posted by: James Hoffman at February 18, 2003 08:52 AM
After Agenda died, I was taken by Info Select, which is still alive and well and now in version 7. This product is robust in its current form, including an email client and simple structure.
Why not buy this search vehicle/company? It has a simple interface for us business types, yet needs a financial injection to go mainstream to compete with what seems to be your target.
Port a subset database to the handheld market and you will have a killer application.
Posted by: Alan Barker at February 19, 2003 08:33 PM
Re: Ecco. Yup. Ecco was great. It had a heirarchy of tasks related to people or whatever else. Now I need Outlook and MS Project.
I lived on Ecco and FoxPro... I was so happy! I just thought of what I wanted to do and did it. Access drives me nuts. If you're looking for something to do, go buy the old code for both and update them for use on the web, unicode, xml and all that. I would be very happy.
Never saw Adgenda.. sounds like it was pretty good though.
Posted by: Stuart Green at February 25, 2003 11:40 AM
Boy does this bring back memories. I was an early adopter of agenda (and yes Lotus IMPRoV). Have every version of ECCO back to 1.0. Abandoned ECCO because it was too hard to use in a networked MS shop. Now that I am heading out on my own, I intend to re-load Ecco. If you could figure out a way to synch outline views with Palm 5.0 I'd be thrilled.
Posted by: Bob at February 27, 2003 11:56 AM
I personally am willing to run multiple programs to get what I perceive to be the full spectrum of PIM function:
- Contact Management
- Calendar Management
- Outlining and planning
- Project planning
- KnowledgeBase Management (i.e. - storage and retrieval of unstructured information.
- Any that are important to others that I've left out.
I use ECCO Pro V3.03 for the first 4, although I would use something like ACT! if my needs for Contact and Calendar Management were more intense.
I use Info Select by Micro Logic for my unstructured data. I first bought this wonderful program around 1988 when it ran only under DOS and was called Tornado. Since then, it has gone through a name change and multiple upgrades most of which added only Windows capability and feature-bloat (Calendar, phone book, etc.. I am still about three releases downlevel, and gratefull that I can still use my old DOS commands to add and retrieve random notes (of which I have thousands).
I was an early user of ECCO and remember all the discussion on Compuserve from dedicated AGENDA users about features it (ECCO) needed to win their hearts and minds. I am presently experimenting with a new product called Info Handler from a German devceloper called MDE. The Info Handler Forum in Yahoo Groups is having a similar Agenda-related discussion right now.
I never used Agenda, but my impression is that Info Handler is closer to it than ECCO was/is.
If I figure out how to make good use of InfoHandler's Agenda-like features(Masters/Slaves, Super-Categories/Sub-Categories) I may use it to replace Info Select.
I am grateful that InfoHandler doesn't include a native calendar, but I have no doubt that some fanatic will figure out how to construct one.
Posted by: Robert Schoedel at March 3, 2003 04:33 PM
Ecco and Agenda sure seem to have fanatically positive user bases. I wish I could work my way into either of them enough to figure out what makes people like them so much.
For me, straightforward Palm synchronization is the path to my heart.
Posted by: Opher Donchin at April 1, 2003 12:30 AM
I'm glad to hear Agenda may live on. I've used Agenda since the day I saw it in the 80 to today. I wrote an article on how we use it in construction in the Feb 03 issue of the Journal of Light Construction. I've looked for something to replace it all the way through the 90's to this day and everything that comes close to Agenda is inferior and dies anyhow. Mitch probably knows what to do and he'd have a pretty big following if he got it to replace outlook if it didn't seem threatening to the average person who uses outlook mostly to get e-mail. Best of Luck on a direct successor to Agenda - I'm already in line. Todd Wacome
Posted by: Twacome at April 5, 2003 09:52 AM
Much of what I hear about ECCO and Agenda (I've not used either) reminds me of Info Select, which is what I use and we get along very well. It's expensive, but does much of what I need in a PIM.
Posted by: Jack at April 22, 2003 07:07 PM
Another couple of oldies but goodies to look at:
On the Mac, there was a great product called InControl from Attain, basic outline/spreadsheet combo that worked really well. It had a geekier competitor called InfoDepot from Chena Software and a much bulked-up version called Arrange, which was eventually bought by CE Software. My understanding was that Arrange was quite similar to Echo.
Posted by: Ross Rubin at May 15, 2003 12:16 PM
Wow: I can't believe I haven't heard a word about Grandview in the comments above. When it comes to organizing one's thoughts, this outliner can't be beat. It's a shame it died with DOS. I've seen nothing that has it's ability to move thougts and related content like this program. If an outliner is in your future program ( and I believe it should be) look here, long and hard.
Posted by: Ed Netherton at May 18, 2003 08:28 PM
Agreed re: Agenda. I miss it terribly.
Posted by: Paul Zorovich at July 10, 2003 01:34 PM
Are you really trying to compete with Outlook? Or Maximizer? Outlook people are mostly clueless, Maximizer people are semi technical, and really give a shit about portablity.
Posted by: Eric at July 10, 2003 01:38 PM
I found it interesting that while checking out the MDE InfoHandler site http://www.mdesoft.com/english.htm they mention as a feature "Import/Export of data from/to Lotus Agenda."
Posted by: Jonah Hex at July 10, 2003 03:00 PM
Wouldn't it be useful to work together with the GNUenterprise folks? Python+wxWindows also, and I'm pretty sure that at some point in the future both projects will have to interoperate...
BTW, open source ABAP interpreter, anyone?
Posted by: daniel at July 10, 2003 03:10 PM
Very pleased to hear about an Agenda revival. I seem to have a knack for loving orphan technology: I use Lotus Agenda on a Psion 7(using an XT Emulator). Both blisteringly good and both abandoned. I'd give a lot for a souped-up, multi-platform, GUI version of Agenda.
Posted by: Craig at July 11, 2003 05:01 AM
Thanks Jonah Hex (above July 10) for the tip on the possibility of InfoHandler being able to import and export Agenda STF files. I've tried it, and it works very well - opens up some new opportunities for getting Agenda data into other apps as well.
Posted by: Craig at July 11, 2003 08:16 AM
I remember Agenda warmly and am something of a nut for PIM daily calendar programs.
I suspect that I am like a good number of users in that I rely on a daily calendar program, but use only prioritized tasks, not timed appointments. Surprisingly, only one program, Office Accelerator, permits one to work like this. All others give priority to timed appointments.
What I would like is simple enough:
1. Entries for tasks run across screen. Entries are entered on the (wrap-around) line (no dialog boxes).
2. Entries can be recurring. rolled over, etc.
3. Lots of priority numbers (say, 1-99).
I have lot of other suggestions, but these are the crucial ones.
Posted by: Steven Goldberg at July 11, 2003 11:51 AM
Everyone is talking about I use this program, make it work like this program, etc. Why dont you really help these guys out and tell them what features you want.
That being said..
I dont like my PIM to decide for me what fields I need to fill information into. So I would like to define my own fields to fill up my Contact Manager. Programs that do this are Sidekick 95, and ListPro.
If the dev team is not sure what I mean they can contact me. I am also going to volunteer on the OSAF site.
I thought of a good commercial name for the product..... BIG STOMACH it holds all the information you need. ;-)
Posted by: ST at July 16, 2003 12:17 PM
I'm puzzled as to why no one has previously mentioned MaxThink (DOS). No, it's not perfect (same for new windows version), but I've been using it since '87 for just about all my info needs. It's running as I write, on a 486 laptop ($20, ebay) next to my desktop. It, especially in combination with a companion product, Houdini, can do things no other program can do (that I've ever found). For example, it's the only outliner I've tried that *easily* allows you to see the "trees in the forest", by just showing by default only any given parent and child(ren) topics. That alone is one of its best features, to me. If only it could do true cloning...
Anyway, thanks to all for your perspectives!
Posted by: Wiz46 at July 20, 2003 06:40 PM
I first purchased Organizer in London in 1992 before it was purchased by Lotus. If memory serves me right, I was introduced to Ecco not long thereafter by my friend and attorney, and we have both been using is successfully ever since. I used the networking features in my 10 man consulting firm until 1998 when we sold out, and of course had to switch to MS stuff. Fortunatley I left and have used Ecco ever since. I continue to find new undocumented features. It needs a better interface to an email program, (although Outlook Linker provides some functionality).
Rescue and improve Ecco and you will have done the world a service.
Posted by: NelsontechKE at July 26, 2003 02:29 PM
I have used Agenda, Ecco, Organizer, Outlook, etc. Although Ecco has a very effective outline presentation, nothing is as flexible as Agenda was. It's primary feature is the underlying ability to easily modify and display the way you link your information after you have entered it or committed it to your dataset. It acknowledges change and allows you to respond quickly. It's so flexible it allows you to do play with scenarios, try out approaches, then put everything back the way it was if things don't work out. Unfortunately, this also made the "fiddle factor" very high, but that's part of the fun, I guess...
Posted by: Nick at August 23, 2003 08:04 AM
I was an early and impassioned user of Agenda, and after its demise (and a period of mourning) I did a lot of research to find the next best thing, finally settling on Ecco. Of course, no sooner had I gotten comfortable than it too was killed off - unbelievable! Anyway, it's great to hear that Mitch Kapor and colleagues are on the case to bring the essence of Agenda back to life for the modern masses. I can't wait to see what you all come up with. Would also like to register a plea that you work in a migration path from Ecco!
Posted by: Jan at August 23, 2003 09:23 PM
Is there a Windows version of InControl from Attain? My old Mac just bit the dust. Most other programs I've seen are overly complex. Does anyone know the author? Please respond to me directly.
Posted by: Eric at August 24, 2003 10:14 AM
I also have followed the migration from Agenda to Ecco to Outlook and will anxiously await the availability of this new product with Mitch Kapor's involvement. I have tolerated the functionality of Outlook as a PIM because I was using it as a mail manager but since I have switched to Eudora Mail Manager because of the virus and worm explosion, the convenience of an all in one product is no longer there with Outlook.
Posted by: Gary at September 5, 2003 05:22 AM
Hurry up and produce it, please.
Posted by: Michael O'Neill at October 19, 2003 04:26 AM
Wouldn't it be great if the features were modular? Maybe their could be different task list/e-mail/address book/calendar modules depending on what you need. For example, I might want really light IMAP mail with a heavy duty contact manager and no task list. Another user might need a supercharged calendar that integrates wit the task list and a separate billing system.
Posted by: Larry at November 3, 2003 03:51 PM
I agree with Michael O'Neill. The sooner the better. Please include migration of all Outlook modules.
Posted by: Ron Kessler at November 8, 2003 08:09 AM
Version 1 Agenda user, and Improv, both killed off in V2. Why not rewrite Agenda for a start?
Just Do IT.
Then you'll get the world designing it thereafter.
I'm not convinced PIM is the optimal tag, but I understand why it's there as such.
Given half a chance I'd incorporate an accounting system into it; creative accounting at its most inspired. Wouldn't take much to revolutionise accounting systems, all still stuck in their traditional computer think.
Posted by: anthony at May 9, 2004 05:33 PM